WEEK 2 ARGUMENTS TO DO WITH DEPENDENCE AND INDEPENDENCE IN FAVOUR OF THE PROBABILITY OF THERE BEING A TRULY NON-CREATED DEPENDENT ETERNAL SOURCE OF BEING
WEEK 2 ARGUMENTS TO DO WITH DEPENDENCE AND INDEPENDENCE IN FAVOUR OF THE PROBABILITY OF THERE BEING A TRULY NON-CREATED DEPENDENT ETERNAL SOURCE OF BEING
The Universe “Big Bang” occurred 10 to 15 Billion years ago, and the universe has been expanding ever since according to this theory.
What was there before the “big bang”?
Williams writes “There obviously can be no “time before time”. Nothing comes from nothing. If once there was nothing, then there would be nothing now, because there would be nothing to cause anything to come to be, and nothing that existed uncaused. Therefore, something has always existed.”
Are there signs that a personal creator could have been at work in creation?
Charles H Pinnock says there are signs:
“ A stream does not rise higher than its source. It is not reasonable to believe that there are effects such as personality, morality, freedom and intelligence in the world which were not present in the cause of it. It simply does not make full sense to suppose that matter, mindless, amoral and impersonal, is the sole originating cause of things.”
If the Universe itself was eternal, and it provided the cause that led to the Big Bang, what created the ingredients that led to the Big Bang happening? All matter is dependent on something else for its existence. There cannot be an infinite number of dependent things stretching back into an eternal and infinite past.
The Big Bang theory, even if it is true, does not therefore disprove that there is a God. Neither does it prove there is a God!
ARGUMENTS TO DO WITH DEPENDENCY AND INDEPENDENCY
Everything in the world is dependent on something else for its existence.
What in the world is truly independent? Everything relies on something else – a tree relies on the seed from which it grew, which relies on the water and the soil supplying it with nutrients, which relies on the rain, etc. How far back can you go with that chain? Can you get to a truly independent thing that does not rely on anything else for its existence?
If everything is dependent on something else, what was the first thing that came into being dependent on? Or did matter always exist? In which case, how was it created?
God by definition is not dependent on something else for his existence as he is greater than all other things. If God were dependent on something else for his existence he would cease to be God.
ARGUMENTS TO DO WITH INFINITY IN TERMS OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE ie ARGUMENTS IN FAVOUR OF THE IDEA THAT THE UNIVERSE HAS ALWAYS EXISTED
Infinity as a concept when applied to the practical real world and universe produces real problems.
Williams writes
“Imagine that your local library has an infinite number of books. Suppose that there is an infinite number of red books and also an infinite number of black books. Does it really make sense to say that if all the red books were out on loan, the total number of books in the library would be the same as if none of the books were out on loan?
Furthermore, if we had an infinite number of books, this would include all the books beginning with the letter “A”. Suppose that we also have an infinite number of books that begin with “A”. Then, though the first set contains the second set and more, both sets have the same number of books. But one would expect that if one set is the subset of the other, the subset would less than the set.
Then again, suppose that each book in the library has an infinite number of pages. The first book in the library would contain as many pages as the entire collection, and someone would read only one book from that collection would have read as many pages as someone who read each and every book!”
So going back in time, dependent things evolve from dependent things, but where does the chain begin? What is the first cause in the chain dependent on? Does it just go back into infinity, which as we have seen is a pretty complicated concept in terms of understanding the real universe, or is there an independent first cause at work here?
This stuff gets very complicated but try this for starters!
Williams writes
“Whether finite or infinite in number, dependent things require the existence of an independent thing upon which to depend. This independent thing must be separate from that which depends upon it. Independence cannot be the “emergent property” of a set of dependent things, for emergent properties depend upon those things which lead to their emergence, and in the case of dependent things, without a prior independent cause there would be nothing to lead to the emergence of any property.”
SO THERE EXISTS AN INDEPENDENT ENTITY?
Is this independent entity eternal?
Williams writes
“If this independent entity cannot come into existence (as this would make it dependent), it would seem difficult to conceive of it passing out of existence. We therefore may say that it is eternal.”
Is this independent entity rational and moral?
Williams says it is: “Since we are intelligent, rational and personal beings, it would seem reasonable to suppose that it is also rational and personal. To do otherwise would be to believe that the greater came from the lesser. If this entity ”X” is rational, it must also be personal, because non-personal things cannot reason. If X is rational, and personal it must know things. Being externally unlimited, X must know things without external limitation. This is not to say that X must be all-knowing, but it is to say that X might be all-knowing.”
HOWEVER, AN ATHEIST MIGHT ALSO ARGUE THAT THERE EXISTS AN INDEPENDENT ETERNAL ENTITY AND THAT THIS IS THE UNIVERSE ITSELF IN ALL ITS FORMS. BUT YOU STILL HAVE THE PROBLEM OR HOW MATTER CAME INTO BEING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
TO CONCLUDE
“If something exists, it must be either a dependent thing or an independent thing. If a dependent thing exists, then there must also exist an independent thing. Something undeniably exists, and so there must exist at least one independent thing. This independent thing must be all-powerful and eternal. Furthermore, as the foundation of our moral sense, we cannot morally condemn it in anything but a subjective way.”
This is therefore a good argument for showing how there is such a person as God
The Universe “Big Bang” occurred 10 to 15 Billion years ago, and the universe has been expanding ever since according to this theory.
What was there before the “big bang”?
Williams writes “There obviously can be no “time before time”. Nothing comes from nothing. If once there was nothing, then there would be nothing now, because there would be nothing to cause anything to come to be, and nothing that existed uncaused. Therefore, something has always existed.”
Are there signs that a personal creator could have been at work in creation?
Charles H Pinnock says there are signs:
“ A stream does not rise higher than its source. It is not reasonable to believe that there are effects such as personality, morality, freedom and intelligence in the world which were not present in the cause of it. It simply does not make full sense to suppose that matter, mindless, amoral and impersonal, is the sole originating cause of things.”
If the Universe itself was eternal, and it provided the cause that led to the Big Bang, what created the ingredients that led to the Big Bang happening? All matter is dependent on something else for its existence. There cannot be an infinite number of dependent things stretching back into an eternal and infinite past.
The Big Bang theory, even if it is true, does not therefore disprove that there is a God. Neither does it prove there is a God!
ARGUMENTS TO DO WITH DEPENDENCY AND INDEPENDENCY
Everything in the world is dependent on something else for its existence.
What in the world is truly independent? Everything relies on something else – a tree relies on the seed from which it grew, which relies on the water and the soil supplying it with nutrients, which relies on the rain, etc. How far back can you go with that chain? Can you get to a truly independent thing that does not rely on anything else for its existence?
If everything is dependent on something else, what was the first thing that came into being dependent on? Or did matter always exist? In which case, how was it created?
God by definition is not dependent on something else for his existence as he is greater than all other things. If God were dependent on something else for his existence he would cease to be God.
ARGUMENTS TO DO WITH INFINITY IN TERMS OF THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE ie ARGUMENTS IN FAVOUR OF THE IDEA THAT THE UNIVERSE HAS ALWAYS EXISTED
Infinity as a concept when applied to the practical real world and universe produces real problems.
Williams writes
“Imagine that your local library has an infinite number of books. Suppose that there is an infinite number of red books and also an infinite number of black books. Does it really make sense to say that if all the red books were out on loan, the total number of books in the library would be the same as if none of the books were out on loan?
Furthermore, if we had an infinite number of books, this would include all the books beginning with the letter “A”. Suppose that we also have an infinite number of books that begin with “A”. Then, though the first set contains the second set and more, both sets have the same number of books. But one would expect that if one set is the subset of the other, the subset would less than the set.
Then again, suppose that each book in the library has an infinite number of pages. The first book in the library would contain as many pages as the entire collection, and someone would read only one book from that collection would have read as many pages as someone who read each and every book!”
So going back in time, dependent things evolve from dependent things, but where does the chain begin? What is the first cause in the chain dependent on? Does it just go back into infinity, which as we have seen is a pretty complicated concept in terms of understanding the real universe, or is there an independent first cause at work here?
This stuff gets very complicated but try this for starters!
Williams writes
“Whether finite or infinite in number, dependent things require the existence of an independent thing upon which to depend. This independent thing must be separate from that which depends upon it. Independence cannot be the “emergent property” of a set of dependent things, for emergent properties depend upon those things which lead to their emergence, and in the case of dependent things, without a prior independent cause there would be nothing to lead to the emergence of any property.”
SO THERE EXISTS AN INDEPENDENT ENTITY?
Is this independent entity eternal?
Williams writes
“If this independent entity cannot come into existence (as this would make it dependent), it would seem difficult to conceive of it passing out of existence. We therefore may say that it is eternal.”
Is this independent entity rational and moral?
Williams says it is: “Since we are intelligent, rational and personal beings, it would seem reasonable to suppose that it is also rational and personal. To do otherwise would be to believe that the greater came from the lesser. If this entity ”X” is rational, it must also be personal, because non-personal things cannot reason. If X is rational, and personal it must know things. Being externally unlimited, X must know things without external limitation. This is not to say that X must be all-knowing, but it is to say that X might be all-knowing.”
HOWEVER, AN ATHEIST MIGHT ALSO ARGUE THAT THERE EXISTS AN INDEPENDENT ETERNAL ENTITY AND THAT THIS IS THE UNIVERSE ITSELF IN ALL ITS FORMS. BUT YOU STILL HAVE THE PROBLEM OR HOW MATTER CAME INTO BEING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
TO CONCLUDE
“If something exists, it must be either a dependent thing or an independent thing. If a dependent thing exists, then there must also exist an independent thing. Something undeniably exists, and so there must exist at least one independent thing. This independent thing must be all-powerful and eternal. Furthermore, as the foundation of our moral sense, we cannot morally condemn it in anything but a subjective way.”
This is therefore a good argument for showing how there is such a person as God
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